Transcript 0:00 [gentle music] Welcome to the inaugural episode of the liberalism.org show. 0:08 I'm Aaron Ross Powell, Senior Director of Liberal Projects at the Institute for Humane Studies, and I'm super excited to say Senior Director of liberalism.org. 0:19 To get the show started, I brought on IHS's president, Emily Chamlee-Wright, for a conversation about liberalism.org, why we're launching it, and what you can expect both from the online magazine and from this podcast. 0:34 Welcome to the show, Emily. Thank you so much, Aaron. I'm so excited to be here. Why this project, and why now? What is it about this moment that calls for a journal of liberal ideas? Um, the question 0:51 conjures up the moment we're in, obviously. Uh, that's, that's-- There is a great deal to be worried about. We are-- At least in my lifetime, I've never experienced the, uh, 1:06 the ascendant illiberalism that we're facing right now. And so part of the answer to the question comes from a deep concern, uh, and, uh, we need to be responding to the moment with the best ideas that we have. 1:23 There is also, weirdly, that, uh, kind of wrapped up into this moment of, um, intense concern, there's also a weird moment of, of opportunity and optimism that comes with it as well. 1:37 And, and I, I don't think that's a contradiction because there has been a reawakening to the important principles of the liberal project. Liberalism has become a thing again, right? 1:53 You know, I mean, I grew up in a time when it was, uh, almost forgotten because it was just the assumed starting point. 2:03 It was the assumed standard that we would always protect and that, uh, that other societies were attempting to achieve. 2:14 And so the liberal default was the default, and so you had a sort of, uh, forgetting that came along with that. And, um, this is a moment precisely because the liberal order is under threat. 2:26 There is renewed interest and sincere desire to learn more about liberalism and the, the liberal project and its promise and where we've failed to live up to that promise. 2:40 And that is an exciting place to be, and especially when you're part of an intellectual community that is chock-full of liberals and deep liberal thinkers. 2:53 And so liberalism.org is the opportunity to shine a light on, on those thinkers, to bring them into the public, um, intellectual domain, and, uh, and I'm super excited about that as well. 3:06 So it's, it's both things I hold in kind of tension with, with each other is a, a sincere concern along with a really sincere optimism. You know, when I think about this project, it's in that context of this moment 3:23 and that, yes, this is-- liberalism is threatened in a way it hasn't been in living memory in this country. 3:35 Um, but on that opportunity, it's not, it's not just that this moment sheds a light or shines a light on why liberalism matters because we're seeing what it looks like when you take it away or try to take it away or assault its, um, its institutions, its cultural and social norms, its values and so on. 3:58 Um, but that whatever comes next is not gonna look the same as what came before. We're not going to simply return to the way things were before this moment, and so we have to forge something new. 4:13 And I think you and I and our colleagues agree that liberalism is the path forward, is, is the, the best version of the future that we can hope for. Um, and, and this moment or what comes after it 4:27 opens a real opportunity that hasn't existed, I think, in our lifetimes to 4:34 have that conversation about what comes next and to center liberal values and principles and perspectives and rules and institutions, everything we've been talking about at IHS for sixty-five years, to, to center that in this conversation of building what comes next as opposed to, as you said, we kind of-- liberalism became in a sense like the status quo and-- or a version of liberalism became the status quo, and we kind of forgot. 5:02 It became the water we swam in, and we kind of forgot, like, how important it was. But now we have a chance to, like, rebuild, but rebuild more robustly. Yeah. And I'm gonna yes, and you on, on that. 5:14 It, it is rebuild and rebuild more robustly. 5:18 Uh, there is also an-- and something you said r- at the start was that there, there is this opportunity to, to think beyond just sort of snapping back to something that was because, um, this is, this is part of what is good about liberalism is that it's a system that learns. 5:38 It's a system that has inbuilt mechanisms for contestation, you know, at all levels. 5:43 And that, and that contestation is, um, beneficial because it's, it's through that, um, tugging and pulling of different ideas, different, you know, different market participants. 5:55 There's a tugging and pulling in politics. There's a tugging and pulling in civic life. That tugging and pulling, that contestation is- Is a, a source of constant churn. 6:07 It's also a source of, of correction and, and, um, trying new things out, course-correcting once you learn that that new thing wasn't so great, and then you try it again in a different way. 6:18 You-- So we see improvement over time. And so when we talk about, um, rebuilding the liberal order, rebuilding ordered liberty, uh, part of that is going to harken back to, uh, time-tested principles. 6:35 You know, so constitutional constraints. There's an element of recapturing, um, uh, something, you know, the elements within the liberal tradition. 6:45 And so, you know, constitutional restraint, federalism, all of these kinds of ideas. It's like there's a, there's a reawakening to, "Oh, yeah, those things are really, really important." 6:56 And so fidelity to constitutional principles would be an example of something that we do want to, um, you know, recall from, from our liberal past and reassert it. 7:08 And at the same time, it's not an inherently small c conservative project, right? It's not about going back to something that was at one time perfect. 7:18 I don't think either of us would say that there's ever been a moment of perfection. That's not really the value propers-- pr-proposition of liberalism. It's more, you know, the value prop is more about that learning. 7:29 And so it will be something new. It will be something that, that learns from this particular chapter in our history. 7:38 Uh, and s- and that is also the exciting part, is that this project that invites new voices, invites, uh, voices that are well-known within academic circles to come into more of a public, um, scholarship, um, space, uh, there is an opportunity to start to really, um, help us understand how the future could take shape that would be genuinely new as well. 8:04 So there's, there is something that is, you know, rebuilding and restoring, and there's also an element that is building something new. Does that, does that sound right near pr- from, from the framing that you offered? 8:19 Yes. As, as you were saying this, I was thinking, um, Jason Kuznicki, liberalism.org's editor, wrote an essay that I very much admired years ago, um, where he argued that-- 8:32 I think he's, he put it, "The future is a conversation." That it's not something that we dictate or that some set of people dictate or that is designed, but rather it is something that emerges from all of us 8:44 talking and planning and experimenting together. Um, and, and when I've been talking about liberalism.org, uh, and, and the principles that guide us, one of those is that liberalism is a conversation. 8:59 It has been for centuries. It will be for centuries more. It's not, as you said, like it's, it's not this static fixed thing. We haven't figured it all out yet. But we do know that there are certain bedrock principles 9:14 that are, in a sense, non-negotiable because they're just the way we ought to treat each other and the way that a government that respects the way we ought to treat each other will behave. 9:26 Um, and, and then other things we've learned about what works and what doesn't as far as governing a society, structuring its laws and norms. But there's a lot of conversation still to be had within that. 9:37 And every time something happens in the world, like this present moment, it renews that conversation, or it shifts the needs of that conversation, or it opens up new opportunities. 9:47 Um, and this is one of the reasons I'm really excited about this project too. 9:50 The, the conversation we're having now, the conversations we will have going forward on this podcast, the conversation that our colleague Jason Cannon will have on his podcast, Ideas in Progress, the articles that we will publish on the website, 10:04 is it's all about showing that liberalism as a conversation, that we share this set, this grounding set of principles and values and perspectives. But then we have to figure it out from there. 10:18 We have to figure out what the rebuilding looks like. We have to figure out what the unanswered questions are and then try our best to answer them. 10:26 Yeah, in any good conversation, like, it's not a good conversation if the outcome is already, like, pre-scripted and predetermined, right? 10:33 It's, it's-- The conversation itself is generative, and so there's a, there's a creative dimension in, uh, in the project of liberalism.or-org, and also bigger picture, there's a creative dimension in how we can think through governing structures, how we can think through, um, our own, um, 10:56 liberal norms and, and, you know, civic norms so that we emerge on the other side with a more robust and exciting liberal project. Um, but that's not predetermined how to do that exactly. 11:11 And so that's part of the, the, uh, you know, kinda groping that we're all gonna be doing collectively here, uh, to work our way towards the, towards that future grounded in principle, but the future we all recognize is radically undetermined. 11:27 I wanna ask about these bedrock principles, though, because this, this does have, liberalism.org does have a perspective. It is a, a liberal publication, a liberal project from an organization that exists to advance 11:40 liberalism. When we think about that in the context of liberalism.org, we use this four corners metaphor. It's our logo of the website, which comes from your writing. 11:59 So to give a sense of like, okay, what are the kind of-- what do we mean by liberalism, even if it's a large tent- Yeah... can you just explain what you mean by the four corners of liberalism? Sure, sure. 12:07 And I, you know, I- It's, it's a, it's a framework that I've used, but it comes from, you know, 300 years of liberal thought, right? You know, uh, uh, ahead of me. But the way I think about the liberal project 12:21 is that there are, um, some kind of like, like you were saying, bedrock sort of, you know, q- uh, core elements here that... And the, the use of the word bedrock is useful because it's-- it, it feels hard-edged. 12:36 It feels con- you know, kind of solid and grounded. 12:39 And, uh, and so in those, in, in that sphere, I think of things like constitutional principles, uh, limited government which respects the individual liberties of the governed, a society built, uh, built a society, um, composed of self-governing citizens, and that requires government to, um, to secure the rights of, of the individuals within that society. 13:07 Government doesn't give you your rights. It, it secures those rights. 13:10 That, that core bedrock, hard-edged, uh, set of principles that are political liberalism, um, that's, you know, th- those are that sort of non-negotiable, um, element here. 13:22 I would also include the, the, um, you know, if we start with the I think of as the core, uh, liberal principle that we are one another's, all of us, d- you know, each other's dignified equals, that every person is endowed with equal moral, um, 13:44 worth as every other person. If we start with that as the principle, then other things follow, political freedom being one of them, but also economic freedom. 13:53 Um, we could still disagree a lot about, about what the optimal way or methods or degree of, say, um, uh, market regulation is, and we will likely have a lot of those kinds of conversations and disagreements on liberalism.org. 14:08 But the f- the baseline fact that we should be free to, in Deirdre McCloskey's words, give it a go. 14:15 Like, like I, I have a, an idea for a better thing in the world, for a better re- uh, reconfiguration of, of resources in the world, and I'm gonna give it a go, and that-- and I own the consequences if it doesn't work. 14:30 And that, that liberty to engage in economic activity is core to the liberal tradition. And, and so those are the kinds of like, like, you know, edges, the, the, the sort of hardscaping of the liberal project. 14:46 But then there are these other less hardscaping and more softscaping of the liberal project, which include norms of intellectual, uh, freedom, the-- and it's-- and that is in part grounded in political liberalism of, of First Amendment kinds of principles. 15:03 That's a necessary condition. 15:05 But to really get intellectual liberalism, it's, it's also about having norms and standards of truth-telling, of integrity in our discourse, integrity of, of our, uh, intellectual exchanges, and those are, those are soft norms, right, for the most part. 15:24 And so, so the liberal project also has this domain of this, this softscaping, certainly within a intellectual life, certainly within our civic lives as neighbors and just, you know, fellow members of, you know, walking down the neighborhood streets, that there are certain principles in play that are so familiar to us that we oftentimes don't recognize that they're, that they're functioning. 15:48 But those habits of association are also part of a liberal society. 15:55 And so one of the things that I'm most excited about with liberalism.org is that, is that we'll have people who, um, are, you know, really focused in on those hardscaping questions. 16:06 We'll have others who are much more dialed in on the softscaping, um, civic liberalism and intellectual liberalism. And bringing those all into one space I think is gonna be super exciting for this magazine. 16:19 Can you speak a bit to the why us question? Like, why is it you and me and The Institute for Humane Studies doing this? Because the, the values, principles that you outlined, the vision of liberalism is, 16:34 I think, rather widely shared, that it's a lot of people are, are enthusiastic about that way of- Yeah... approaching politics and society and culture and institutions and so on. 16:48 And, and you mentioned this earlier on, you mentioned, like, our, our scholars, our network, but can you talk a bit more about that? Like, what, what it is, the, the resources we bring, 17:00 the network that we've been building for decades, and how that informs this project? I'll go back to our origin first, but then, but, but then jump ahead. 17:10 Uh, the origin, you know, we were established in 1961, and, and, you know, by, by F.A. 17:16 Baldy Harbor- Harper, um, who, who was of a generation that lived through two devastating world wars, and it was in that context that he was wrapping his head around, like, you know, what are the disciplines? 17:31 What are the lines of inquiry? What are the, the intellectual commitments 17:38 that would allow us to m- much more consistently l- live in a world of, of peacefulness, cooperation, prosperity, widely shared prosperity, such that all human beings have the opportunity to live 17:55 meaningful and purposeful lives? That, that was the starting question of this organization, 18:03 and that is the question that we've been pursuing for 65 years, and liberalism.org is just a natural evolution of that. Along the way, though, and this is what you were referring to, we've cultivated the world's largest 18:20 The, the world's largest network of scholars who are deeply committed to liberal principles, and that community of, 18:31 of scholars who, who, um, are in higher education, pu- public policy world, the, you know, think tanks, civil society leaders, the people that we've had a part in helping, um, to introduce the ideas and to, um, help them thrive in their careers, that community is exciting and vibrant, and I... 18:54 And we've always known that. Um, but to your point, much of the rest of the world doesn't necessarily know that unless you're really, really steeped into, heavy into the deep intellectual traditions. 19:08 And there is just a tremendous potential for a marriage, uh, to happen here between those who are seeking, um, public scholarship 19:20 and from the brightest minds within the liberal tradition, and we have that to offer in spades. Yeah, the way that I think about it is, man, the scholars in this network and doing similar work, um, 19:37 have such interesting, fascinating, inspiring, intriguing, helpful ideas. Um, and but so often 19:48 they're locked away in academic publications, academic books, conference presentations, talking to other academics, which is really important- Which they need to do... for the development of those ideas. Right. Yes. 19:59 Uh, but I mean, I got into this business, like, you know, this is... 20:05 My career is this stuff because it was when I discovered these ideas in college, it was so exciting and so inspiring, and I was like, "This is the world that I wanna try to achieve." Yeah. 20:16 And I wanna, like, I wanna dedicate myself. The, whatever little bit I can do to make the world more in line with these principles and values of liberalism, that's what I wanna do with my life. Uh, and, 20:31 and so liberalism.org, this podcast, which I should note for listeners, will be interviews with contributors to liberalism.org. So talking more, taking their articles as a jumping-off point for deep conversations. 20:46 So you can expect a wide range of we... Contributors, scholars will be from all sorts of disciplines. Um, so expect a really, really diverse set of ideas every two weeks on this podcast. But 21:00 yeah, taking those, those ideas and those conversations, 'cause again, liberalism is a conversation, taking those conversations and giving you, the audience, you, the reader, you, the listener, a sense of what it looks like, a sense of these ideas, um, so that they can inspire you, they can 21:17 help in your political and social thinking. Um, but also to let you participate. We wanna hear from you. We would love for you to then write about dis- if you disagree with something we publish, write about it. 21:31 Um- Mm-hmm... argue with us on social media. Let us know. You know, we'd like... We want this to be, we want this liberal conversation, and we want this, like, insight into it. 21:43 Um, but man, I'm just excited to get these ideas out there. I am too. And one of the things that I think is particularly valuable about having, um, the sort of scholarly discipline inherent within the project 22:01 is that it helps us as we're building the something new. As you said, you know, like, a lot of people are gonna like, you know, like, what we're offering, which is, you know, 22:13 um, you know, widely spread liberal freedoms, right? Um, and I, and, and that's a good thing that people care about these principles. 22:23 But oftentimes it is, uh, as we're thinking about building something new, there is just an inherent, um, impulse to name all the things that you really, really like and put that on sort of, uh, the c- the c- as an or- another ornament on the Christmas tree. 22:42 And, and the challenge is that when we name things that we, uh, that we like and we're constructing sort of the perfect society, oftentimes those t- those things are in tension, 22:56 and you can't over-optimize on one without, um, uh, sacrificing the others. You know, a very basic one is that we all wanna live in a, in an environment of safety and security. But you can't only have that, right? 23:11 Because if you optimize around that one thing, it means like, well, the safest society is one where no one is ever allowed to leave their homes, you know? Like, like, or everybody's locked away after 7:00 PM. 23:22 Like, that's not a good society to live in. 23:25 Um, and, and so these, these, um, trade-offs and package deals and uninhe- unintended consequences of public policy that may sound good, um, in terms of what it's promising, but then, you know, the, um, ugly head of, of, uh, unintended consequences rears its head. 23:46 That is part of the discipline of thinking through what the next thing could be, what the next iteration, evolution of a liberal society can be. 23:58 You need people who are constantly, you know, like, looking in one another's blind spots to say, you know, "That is a, a good thing that you're, you're, you're pointing to that we should want in the world, but the way in which you're trying to achieve it 24:13 has all sorts of, you know, has these unintended consequences that you're not paying attention to." And so that is the value of having, um, people who have this training and discipline. 24:23 It's also the value of having multiple, multiple, many, many, many voices on the, in the magazine- Because even experts forget, uh, to check their own blind spots. 24:33 And so, um, I'm excited about this being a vibrant community to-- that helps us to really understand that the liberal project is a living project. We're all still in the learning mode. 24:46 And as long as we have liberalism, that is always gonna be the case. When we're talking about exploring, sharing all of these exciting ideas that have both of us so passionate about this project, there's-- 25:03 they operate at this big idea level. But one of the reasons I think we got into the current moment is that a lot of people started feeling like liberalism, the liberal system, wasn't working for them. 25:17 And so is liberalism.org, the website, the podcasts, going to address that? Going to address those more just practical, like, how does liberalism work for me questions as well? 25:29 The first thing I wanna say is I think that, that you've, you've put your, um, finger on something that's, that's really important, that I'd, I'd pull the lens back just a little bit and, and say that I don't think 25:44 most people who have, uh, pent-up frustrations are saying, "I'm really frustrated with liberal democracy," you know, or, or the liberal project, right? Like, they, they say, like, "I, I can't... 25:56 You know, m- my kids, my grown children who have-- who are gainfully employed can't afford to live in the, you know, place that they wanna live in without a, you know, a hour and a half commute. 26:07 Uh, I find it impossible to get, um, care, uh, in, in my rural neighbor- you know, my rural area. Uh, I have to drive two hours for dialysis tre- dialysis treatment," et cetera. 26:21 Like, so tho- I think that's the way in which the, the, um, the frustration comes forward. And I think that it gets translated into the system. Whatever the system is, is not working for me. 26:37 And, and they also see others as sort of benefiting from the status quo in a way that doesn't seem fair, and that's gonna be, "The system is rigged against me." 26:50 And so that does translate into a sort of loss of trust in, um, in, uh, constitutionally constrained liberal democratic institutions, um, even though that's probably not how most people would even say it. 27:06 But it does-- it is that sort of compiling, that, that compounding of frustrations that I think does lead people to populist sentiments. 27:15 It, it does lead people to strong men who are, uh, willing to, um, present themselves and their power as the solution to those challenges, and that's the thing that leads us away from liberalism. 27:32 And so if we liberals, all we do is we say, "Oh, just have patience. Um, don't you know that? 27:40 You know, like, what you're f- going towards is worse than what you're moving away from," that's gonna be pretty dissatisfying. 27:47 So, um, one of the things that I'm most excited about, about liberalism.org is we've got our eye on those tensions. What are the liberal solutions to those compounding frustrations? 28:03 There-- And, and so the first step is to recognize that those frustrations are real, right? 28:08 And, and then the second step is to ask the question instead of defaulting to, "Well, then we need some top-down strongman remedy for that, for that problem." Instead, send the search party out in the direction of, 28:26 of freedom, which says, "Is there a freedom-based liberal solution to that challenge?" Right? And sometimes the answer might be relatively obvious, but oftentimes it's not. 28:38 And I think sometimes, um, you know, we can, uh, you know, folks who are steeped in this tradition oftentimes tend to think that the solutions are ob- always obvious. 28:48 I think the world's a complex place, and it continuously changes, and it continuously offers up new challenges, and it's not always obvious, uh, what the liberal solution is. 29:00 And so that lack of obviousness is also an opportunity for rich conversation and deep interrogation of our own assumptions, uh, deep interrogation and application of the principles that we, uh, you know, know a lot about, but how to apply them into these new contexts and new-- and to address new complex challenges is not always, um, the thing that pops off the page. 29:24 And so having serious minds think about those questions is a big part of what I think we wanna do with liberalism.org and, like, you know, r- really have that solutions orientation leaning into the tensions within a liberal society and then, you know, identify those possible pathways that can address those challenges but leave us at least as free, if not freer than we are right now. 29:50 I wanna thank you, Emily, for being my first guest, and thank listeners for joining us on this launch episode of The liberalism.org Show. 30:01 And if you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts. And also visit us at liberalism.org, where you can find more podcasts, our-- my-- the sister show, Ideas in Progress, 30:16 all the articles from all the thinkers we've been talking about today, um, and just generally join the conversation with us about liberalism. And thank you, Aaron, for leading this effort. 30:30 Thank you for joining us on The liberalism.org Show. If you enjoyed the conversation today, be sure to like and subscribe, rate it in your podcast app, share it with friends, and follow liberalism.org on social media. 30:42 And if you want more ideas like what we discussed in this episode, head to liberalism.org for essays and our companion podcast, Ideas in Progress. 30:51 [outro music]
